Commissioners Meeting devolves into heated debate, Subdivision Ordinance passes 2-1
- Nathaniel Smith | Editor-in-Chief
- Nov 13, 2025
- 20 min read
The November 4 Commissioners Meeting was an eventful one to say the least. Although the meeting began as usual, it was not long before it devolved into heated debates between the three commissioners.
“Approval of the agenda,” began Commissioner Phillip Marshall.
“I’ll make that motion,” said Commissioner Ewen.
“I think we ought to give the public more time to speak. That’s my opinion, and that’s why I won’t be agreeing with you. I liked how it was way back before we made that rule,” said Commissioner Cardwell.
“I have to agree, we didn’t have trouble, but that’s okay,” said Marshall. “I’ll second.”
Ewen and Marshall voting in favor, while Cardwell opposed.
The meeting then switched gears to the public comment section. Lucy Brenton was scheduled to speak, but she was not in attendance. Next up on the docket was Max Greene.
“Following is my written objection to the proposed subdivision ordinance that is scheduled for the second reading at the November 4, 2025 commissioner meeting as per Indiana code below, as requested to be heard during the second reading,” began Greene. He then continued by citing Indiana Code § 36-7-4-606(c) which states:
Sec. 606. (c) If the legislative body proceeds under subsection (b)(1), it shall give notice under IC 5-14-1.5-5 of its intention to consider the proposal at that meeting. If the legislative body proceeds under subsection (b)(2) to schedule a further hearing, it shall publish a notice of the hearing in accordance with IC 5-3-1, announce the hearing during a meeting, and enter the announcement in its memoranda and minutes. The notice and announcement must state:
(1) the date, time, and place of the hearing;
(2) that it pertains to an original zoning ordinance;
(3) that written objections to the proposal filed with the clerk of the legislative body or with the county auditor at or before the hearing will be heard; and
(4) that the hearing may be continued from time to time as may be found necessary.
“The ordinance that was in the newspaper from the Planning Commission did not meet the state's requirements for the meeting notice,” he continued. “It did not comply with IC 5-14-1.5-5 public notice meeting. Archived copies of the live transmission described in subsection one: each archived copy of the live transmission must provide access by link to the meeting. Section D: The governing body shall include the website for the live transmission and archived copies of the live transmission in the meeting notice. Failure to provide legal notice is why Judge Medlock ruled against the county last year when Doug Turner sued the county and won. Judge Medlock told the county that its ordinance had no standing. If you pass this ordinance, it will have the same result: the guaranteed loss in court for the county. This ordinance is being pushed forward to make up for years of not following the current legal existing ordinance.
“The new ordinance takes away the guarantee that you can transfer property to your kids and grandkids,” said Greene. “I will also say that the proposed ordinance lacks in starting with IC 36-7-4-702. It says the subdivision control ordinance must specify standard specifications: minimum width, depth, lot area, public way widths, graves curves, coordination of subdivision public ways with current and planned public ways, and existence of water, sewer, and other municipal services. All of these were addressed under the Administrative Requirement Section of the existing ordinance, which needs to be added into the new ordinance. While we're here, the ordinance needs to add that the division or subdivision of property will not allow to create a non-conforming use due to current existing, or use current existing because of setback distance, even for AG setback distances. The reason for the document must be freestanding, and the requirements of the standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance itself, not only because it is a state law, but because documents the Highway Department would use to refer to the Washington County Planning Resolution–”
“Mr. Greene, your time is up today,” interjected Attorney April Geltmaker.
“Okay,” Greene continued. “–Resolution 2022-0-1 or 2021-0-3, which were declared to not have legal effect in the Turner case, which is an example in which the citizens get a lawyer and the county loses,”
“Mr. Greene, your time is up today,” said Geltmaker once again.
“No, this is required under code to be heard before the meeting because I have it filed with the county. Is that not correct?” asked Greene.
“You can have him read it, or you can have Lisa read it, or you can have both,” said Rhonda Greene from the gallery.
“Read what?” asked Commissioner Ewen. “Read what?”
“What I have filed with the county,” replied Max Greene.
“When did you file this?” Ewen asked.
Commissioner Marshall then allowed Greene to continue.
“This is absurd because IC 36-7-4-1614 Section 4 says that the only way that the county board will lose in court is if they fail to follow all the procedures in accordance with the law,” he added. “I'm just asking the board to go back and do this legally. The board has had illegal membership over nine years of the past 15 years that it's been in existence due to not owning or residing within the jurisdiction of the board or political party violations. You still have one member of the board who didn't take the oath within 30 days of appointment, making the seat vacated and not eligible for reappointment due to the party affiliation. In 2022 and 2023, four of the five members did not meet the state code requirements. IC 36-1-8-10: party affiliation filed no later than the appointees oath of office is filed with the clerk's office for appointment to be valid. IC 5-4-1-1.2 Section A: must take oath within 30 days or (d) do not comply, office becomes vacated.
“IC 36-7-4-208: no more than three of the same political party,” Greene continued on. “This is why the party you participated in at the last primary election before January 30, 2023, and became the last two primary cycles which Mark Hartman had been called a Democrat even though he never had voted Democrat. He also did not own property or reside within the jurisdiction that the board required by IC 36-7-4-216. Earlier this spring in a commissioner meeting, commissioners found out that the zoning board members had vacated their seats because of the 30 days by not being sworn in within the 30 days of the appointment. Lori Gilstrap is no longer eligible to be reappointed because IC 36-7-4-905: No BZA member can hold an elected position. Todd Ewen is Commissioner. And for the lawyer's written confession, Anthony Scifres had been on the City Council the first time that was brought up before. Leslie Bassett was on the school board back in 2010. The county knows about this. IC 36-7-4-218: Staggered term limits. For four years, the county cannot account for how long each member has a term limit, with the county appointed new people to finish out the previous term. They did not keep track of where they were when the new board members were finished.
“This is important because in cases like Lori Gilstrap and the previous board members who changed their party affiliation, they are no longer eligible for reappointment,” said Greene. “IC 36-1-8-10, that's party affiliation. The surveyor has not been following the current law, which states an exempt division of only two splits from a property on the books before May 1, 2011. Currently, the surveyor has given her okay for the property to be auctioned off in six parcels without coming before the zoning board as required to meet the current ordinance. If the surveyor refuses to follow the current ordinance, how can the public expect them this time to follow a more restrictive ordinance? Also, the new planning committee has no requirements to own property or even reside within the county of residence to hold an elected office. Not that the board would follow that anyway, in my opinion. We contacted Mr. Barnett about the ordinances outside of the board meetings in Jackson County. We were told they didn't want input from Washington County residents on that ordinance and were told not to call back.”
Commissioner Marshall then stopped Greene to ask if this statement had been filed with the state, to which Greene replied, “No, it's been filed with the county. It doesn't have to be filed with the state.”
“You're stating that we're in the wrong,” said Marshall. “My question to you is why is this not filed with the state? Nobody from the state has told us that we're wrong. So, why don't you file it with the state?”
“You have to hire your own lawyer and personally sue the board,” Rhonda Greene said from the gallery. “We're not going to spend money on a lawyer. We're not going to try to find a lawyer. We've tried talking to the state before. They said, ‘good luck with that.’ You have to go ahead and sue the board on your own, with your own money, with your own lawyer. Twice over. Federal on down to the local. Twice over. I have record of it. I've tracked this for three years.”
The discussion then nearly began to turn into a shouting-match.
“You keep stating we're in the wrong. Our attorneys tell us we're doing everything right,” said Marshall. “And it's back and forth, back and forth. And your accusations are that we're wrong. And according to our attorneys, we're not in the wrong. If we're in the wrong, let the state tell us we're in the wrong and we can comply with the state to do what they want. But this back and forth all the time, I don't understand what we're doing here. You've stated all the way through that we don't do it on the screen, and we don't do it. But according to the state, we're doing it the way we're supposed to do it. We’re not in the wrong.”
“Phil, this is what the state law says,” replied Rhonda Greene. “What we've been told is that it's something that we have to hire a lawyer for. Just like Hardinsburg, when it was dissolved, the state told you, 'stop that.' And you still didn't. Rokita wrote a letter. They still had to get a lawyer to sue you to have Hardinsburg reinstated. This is a similar situation where we can't get you people off of our backs, and you can't do it legally. We would have to hire our own lawyer and go ahead and sue you over this. Just like with Todd saying, 'chirp, chirp, I wish you would sue me.' I don't want to sue you. I'm not going to spend my money on that. I'm just going to show you for what you are. That's what I do.”
“I appreciate you going through all that,” said Commissioner Cardwell. “I know how much time it took. It took me a while to look up the administrative part of the thing, and I did find out that the administrative part is illegal. It's against state and federal statutes.”
At this point in time, Commissioner Todd Ewen appeared to let out a small laugh.
“Look it up, Todd. You can giggle all the hell you want,” continued Cardwell. “I've done my investigations on it. I called the local counties and stuff. One got busted on it already and had to redo it because once you pass something and it's illegal, then the whole thing is kicked out. My suggestion is to send it back and get it done right. Start taking time to look stuff up.”
The meeting then shifted to a “memorandum of understanding” regarding the decision to eliminate the groundskeeper position at the fairgrounds.
“What has changed in it, Todd?” asked Cardwell.
“The county's assuming the mowing duties,” said Ewen. “And the fair board will oversee the rest of the grounds as they see fit. In other words, we're not going to try to micromanage what goes on at the fairgrounds because the fair board members are the ones who are there every day, who know what's going on and know what the community wants. And we don't have any problem with handing things over to them. And this will actually save us about almost $10,000 a year in expenses.”
“So, who's going to be responsible for the upkeep of the building?” Cardwell asked.
“They will subcontract that out as needed. Mainly volunteer work. A lot of volunteers, hundreds of them, in the county have done that over the years. Painting and things like that,” said Ewen.
“Is that not what’s been done in the past?” Cardwell replied.
“Not to the degree that it needed to be done,” Ewen stated. “Because there are always things that need to be done.”
“Well, that's what I've been getting at,” Cardwell said. “We're basically giving the same agreement back to them and expecting different results. That's what I've been telling you for the last month. You don't want to change anything or step up and fix some buildings and stuff for them before you turn it over. You're setting them up for failure.”
“They are very confident in what they can do and get done, and all of the fair board members are 100% in favor of this,” Ewen replied. “And I think I gave you the phone number of Tom Day.”
“I think they should have called me if they had the concern instead of me calling them,” Cardwell remarked.
“You told me you were going to call him,” Ewen said.
“Well, I didn’t come right out and say I was going to–” said Cardwell.
“Yes, you did,” interjected Auditor Kyra Stephenson.
“Whatever,” Cardwell said. “I'm just saying, you're going to give them the same agreement, and you're going to expect changes. It just makes absolutely no sense to me. I ain't hacking on them. That's not what I'm saying. You expect people to volunteer and do this and do that. That doesn't always work that way. People got lives and stuff.”
“Tony, every phase of this county has a board,” said Marshall. “That board is responsible to make sure that department runs. You're on workforce development, right? You sit on that board, and I haven't gotten a report from you of what you're actually doing. But I got a letter the other day saying that nobody’s representative has been from Washington County.”
“You want to see my emails from them? You want to see them? I'll show them to you. So don't start that crap with me,” Cardwell said. “You held me up on that from the get-go because I asked you to call him and tell him that we switched and you never did it. Me and the Harrison County rep had to get together and do it.”
“I got an email from them the other day, Tony. And I've been questioned about it. So, I'll get with you after the meeting,” said Marshall.
“In the last two weeks, I've been in contact with them probably 4 or 5 times,” Cardwell replied.
“With Workforce? Are they going to put another satellite up there?” Marshall asked. “We had a satellite at one time. What happened? Are they going to put one up?”
“They're more worried about the redistricting right now than anything,” said Cardwell.
“What I'm saying is every board responds back to the supervision here to make sure things are getting done,” Marshall stated.
“And it's our responsibility to see that it's getting done, and that's what I'm trying to say here,” said Cardwell. “You've given them the same agreement, but help them out so they don't fail. That's all I'm saying. You think I'm against them? I'm not against them. I want to see him succeed. I want that fairgrounds, when somebody from another community shows up, I want them to say, 'oh, look at this. Look what they've done.' I want to be proud of it. And we're setting them up for failure because we're not giving them no more help. What are we going to do to help them?”
“We are giving them $20,000 over and above–” said Ewen.
“Todd, this is 2025. You see what I'm saying? Where does that get us?” Cardwell asked. “Phil, you always complain about how much things have gone up. That's what I'm saying. Let's get a comprehensive plan to help them.”
“Have you read the agreement?” asked Ewen.
“I read some of it, I didn’t read it all,” said Cardwell.
“Well, you need to read all of it,” Ewen said.
“I’ve read the old one front to back,” Cardwell said. “You said it hasn't changed other than you took out the groundskeeper position. I'm just saying, you want to set them up for failure? That's on you. It ain't going to be on me.”
“What’s your solution?” Ewen asked.
“That's what I'm saying. We need to get a solution. Giving them the same agreement that they've always had is not the solution,” Cardwell replied.
“I just got through telling you we’re giving them an additional $20,000–” said Ewen.
“I go up there right now and spend about $50,000, and you wouldn't even tell the difference,” Cardwell said.
“You think we have a money tree out here?” Ewen asked.
“I gave you my opinion in private, and I'm giving it to you in public,” Cardwell said.
“Let’s vote on it,” said Ewen. “First of all, I want the public to understand that the current Fair Board members are in agreement with this memorandum of understanding. They are 100% behind it. All the volunteers who work up there are aware of it. This is nothing new. We're trying to maintain the fairgrounds. We're trying to make improvements. We're trying to save money, and we're trying to keep the place up and hopefully do a better job than what we have in the past. There is always room for improvement with everything, and that is the goal. They are an enthusiastic bunch of people. They don't get paid. They're not compensated in any way, shape or form. They spend countless hours up there throughout the year giving back to the community because it's a good thing. And I have all the confidence in the world in them, and I'd like to make a motion to approve this memorandum of understanding so we can move forward with this.”
“Is that your motion?” asked Marshall. “I’ll second it. All in favor, say ‘aye.’”
“Aye,” said Ewen.
“Opposed?” asked Marshall.
“Aye,” said Cardwell. “I want to clarify, though I agree with Todd on everything he said. I just think we need to give them a little bit better tool in agreement.”
“Well, you come up with the money. You come up with the money,” said Ewen.
“We need to do something different. I said that from the get-go,” Cardwell said.
The time had come for the second reading of the proposed Subdivision Control Ordinance by Lisa Fleming. This is an updated version of the document that was read at the previous meeting. You can find the document in its entirety by clicking below:
“I just wanted to offer up a suggestion for your consideration,” began Fleming. “Mr. Greene has read several issues that are of concern to him, and I would suggest that perhaps we consider drafting responses to each one of those points and read them at the appropriate time for transparency. Many of the topics we've already run down and spent significant effort coming up with our background, some we have not. But it may be helpful to everyone to hear the research we have done on many of these topics in some public forum that's appropriate.”
“Well, I think we're going to do the right thing,” Marshall said. “I have to say, I agree with some of what they said, but you lost me on all those numbers [Indiana Codes]. I didn't get all that. So I do need to research what he said. On the same token, I'll have to go back and track down the actual numbers that he gave. But on the other token, we're not here to set up anything. We're not here to take anything away. But it's basically the protection of the citizens of the county itself that is why this is being done. Not to take away. And that to me would make sense of what you've stated. We should do some research. I'd like to talk to Lisa more with the definitions of what you actually said.”
“So, is the suggestion to defer the second reading until–” began Fleming.
“Absolutely not,” interrupted Ewen. “Look, we've been working on this for years. A very prominent gentleman in the community who 15 years ago sat on the BZA, wrote a lot of our planning zoning ordinances for the county. Mr. Adam Dufour came out publicly and stated that this is a good document. Now, he and I don't agree on everything, but we darn sure agree on that. This is very badly needed because there are situations in this county that are travesties. People building homes or garages on property that they thought was theirs, and come to find out that half of their $85,000 elaborate three car garage is sitting on their neighbor. Now, I'm not making these things up. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of cases in this county where there are things like this going on because we don't have something like a 17 page document, which is what we're proposing. And I'm going to say again, in most counties, subdivision control ordinances are a minimum of 25, 30, 40 some of them hundreds of pages. This is not overreach. This is not taking away anyone's freedoms. It is simply there to correct some wrongs that should have been done 20, 30 years ago. This has not been revised for nearly 15 years.”
“But you're talking about one problem we've got. But you're creating others by doing this,” said Cardwell.
“Absolutely not,” replied Ewen.
“I've pointed them out to you directly. Todd,” Cardwell began. “On my personal property, I already got an easement that goes back through my land. There are already three parcels on that easement. Now, say ten years down the road or even tomorrow. After this passes, I will not be able to give my grandkids or my kids a piece of property on that easement. It's right there in writing, is it not?”
“You can, but you have to have an access road,” Ewen said. “And let me tell you why.”
“I got one,” Cardwell said. “But it says clearly you cannot have no more than three parcels per easement in two places in there. It says it in two places.”
“That is not true,” said Ewen. “Let me tell you why you need an access road. We have more private roads in this county than probably any other county in the state of Indiana. You can ask any surveyor. You can ask anybody that would know. This is a health problem. We don't know road names because the roads are private drives. They meander way back. Some of them are a mile long. How are you going to get an ambulance back here when somebody needs an ambulance? What if they can't find the address?”
“Well, maybe we ought to buy that ATV that the ambulance crew has been after. There you go,” Cardwell remarked.
Lisa Fleming was then told to begin the second reading of the proposed Subdivision Control Ordinance. Again, you can find the full document by clicking below:
Immediately following the reading, Ewen made the motion to approve the ordinance, and Marshall seconded it.
“I think we need to discuss some,” Cardwell said. “You've been told that it's illegal. I'm sitting here looking at something here. I Googled if I could not be restricted from giving my grandkids land, and here's what came up: 'in almost all cases, a local ordinance cannot stop you from giving private property to your grandchildren. The right to transfer private property is a fundamental aspect of state and federal law, and the local government has very limited authority to interfere with it.' I done my research. I actually called the neighboring county here, and they ran into this problem here a while back, and they had to redo their whole subdivision ordinance and take the administrative part out of it because it restricted family split. This document does that. I could get on board. Todd, I got–”
“No it doesn’t. No it doesn’t,” said Ewen.
Let me finish,” Cardwell said.
“I don’t care, you’re wrong,” said Ewen.
“Prove me wrong!” said Cardwell.
“We have a vote on the floor,” Ewen stated.
“No. When you make a motion, you discuss it,” Cardwell said. “You had your zoning board attorney suggesting that this be looked into. She was insinuating without coming because she's scared to go against your stinking ass! Laugh all you want. That's what gets us in trouble because you want to ram everything through before the proper procedures are taken. I doubt if there's hardly anybody in this room that will argue with me on that point. It needs to be tabled and needs to go back to the zoning board. And these laws need to be checked out.”
“They’ve already been checked out,” Ewen said.
“Has every one of them been checked out? Lisa, you admitted up here that some of them had, but some of them haven't,” Cardwell said.
“No, I did not admit to that,” Fleming replied. “I have checked all of them and made changes to different versions of the drafts. So yes, I have checked them out.”
“So what you said right here, 'in no case shall more than three parcels be accessed by an access easement.' So, if I want to split my ground off and give it to my grandkids, and I already got three parcels back there, you're telling me I can't. That counteracts your state and federal statutes at that point,” said Cardwell.
“You don’t understand,” Ewen said.
“No, I think you don’t understand,” Cardwell replied.
“I talked to Adam Dufour last night, personally,” said Marshall. “He said he was in agreement with it. And I've heard some stuff here today. But then when it comes down to it, you have read it. You see that this document is ready to be voted on?”
“It is,” said Fleming. “Now, it can be amended if we find that things need to be clarified. It's a living document, and you all know the process for amending an ordinance. But I think it's operational. And as we use it, if it's approved, we may come up with ways to tweak it to make it more understandable or apply to certain situations.”
“My point being, too, is that you all sit on the zoning board, and that's fine,” Cardwell said. “But some of these situations don't apply to nobody. And me reading it right off the bat, there are a couple of them that do apply to me and my plans down the road that you all would overlook, not even thinking to look at that particular thing. So I did. And Todd, you admitted to me the other day you didn't fully understand it. You texted me Connor Barnett's number and said, 'well, I don't understand. You'll have to talk to him.'
“I did not say I didn’t understand it.,” Ewen said. “I simply said, 'if you want a more definitive explanation, you should call the man who wrote it.'”
We've got a motion on the floor. We've got a second on the floor. We've had a discussion. I'm gonna call for a vote,” said Marshall. “All in favor, say, 'aye.'”
“Aye,” said Ewen and Marshall.
“Opposed?” asked Marshall.
“Aye,” said Cardwell.
Cardwell then brought up another topic: a $2 million loan for the highway garage.
“So, I guess we got a loan out for the highway garage, right?” Cardwell asked. “Why don't we see that come across the docket to accept the bills to be paid out of it?”
It's a BOT,” said Marshall. “Do we not have all invoices paid and so forth on the BOT? The money is drawn out of that account as needed.”
“But all the other bills prior to that got approved by us at the board meeting here,” said Cardwell.
“Because our attorney told us that they did not have to come through as claims,” said Kyra Stephenson.
“When I originally asked about the loan, you denied it had even been done at that point. So I started digging,” Cardwell stated.
“Now wait a minute,” began Stephenson. “He never once told you that there was not a loan. That has never been said. If you would open your ears and pay attention, you would notice from the get-go that this was what was planned all along. The council has known about it since the beginning. Apparently, you don’t know what you’re talking about, because the loan has been talked about since day one.”
“My question is, why don't all three commissioners get to see the invoices coming through for that, and then getting approved, like it regularly gets done? Like any other bill that comes to the county,” remarked Cardwell.
“It's $2 million,” said Ewen. “That’s the amount.”
“Out of the $2 million, there've been four bills as of the end of September that were paid out of that account, correct?” asked Cardwell.
“What’s your point?” remarked Stephenson.
“I added it all up. It comes to $1,120,000. That should leave approximately $880,000 in that account, correct?” said Cardwell. “I've done all the math trying to figure it out. And this is what I'm asking. So after you add inner stuff and all that, the account comes up to $268,975.92 that cannot be accounted for with the invoices that I have received. So, if there's something missing, send it forward to me. That's all this secret crap. That's what I'm getting at.”
“First of all, there are no secrets,” said Stephenson. “The State Board of Accounts has audited this. I have given them information this year. I am in contact with the lady at the State Board of Accounts who I send this stuff to. It is being audited. I hate to say it, well, no not really, but they’re a lot smarter than you.”
“What are you trying to say?” Marshall asked Cardwell.
“I ain't saying nothing. I'm just asking. Where's the rest of the invoices that came out of there? It should be public info. I asked for something, and I don't receive a tenth of what I ask for,” Cardwell said.
“All of the invoices are downstairs. You have asked for them, and you do have them all,” said Stephenson.
If I got them all, then that's what I'm saying. There's $268,975.92. I don't know where it went. Explain it to me. I'm not the one signing. I'm not the one approving the bills,” Cardwell stated.
“I don't know what bills are left. I can't even tell you right now,” said Marshall.
“I mean, I ain't saying nothing. Did it go to a utility payment? Did it go here? Did it go there? I'm asking. I don't know,” said Cardwell.
After a brief few seconds of silence, someone from the gallery said, “Maybe we should all go downstairs at once to the auditor’s office and see where the money’s at.”
“I got an email showing what came out. So, I mean, you know, I can only trust that,” said Cardwell. “All right, enough of that. I just thought I'd ask.”
“You are welcome to go down there and get any papers you want to get,” said Marshall. “I can't tell you off the top of my head what's down there. But everything runs through the bank and everything's approved before it is run.”
“When I request something, I request it on email, and I just know what I've got,” Cardwell concluded.
The long and arduous first commissioners meeting of November marked the approval of the new Subdivision Control Ordinance. Considering the tense and heated discussions that unfolded during the meeting, it is safe to say that these conversations regarding the ordinance, as well as other topics such as the $2 million loan, are far from over.
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